@Eben Thank you for your guidance. I would like to hear more about why the below idea is "ridiculous," but understand that you do not want the class to go in that direction.

I am not sure where to go now however. Perhaps you can help. While you make a strict distinction between education reform and lawyering, isn't it largely lawyers who write education policy. Certainly law school policy is created and changed by lawyers. From Robinson I took away that a "real lawyer knows how to take care of a legal problem." Advocating for an administrative change to improve a problem is exactly the kind of thing I hope to do as a lawyer. I thought as an aspiring lawyer it is appropriate for me to learn to take care of legal problem. I am thinking about being a lawyer incorrectly or I am thinking about your class incorrectly?

I think Rory makes good points about the feedback. As for the sit in idea, it was more about trying to alert the faculty to exactly how serious a problem we feel this is. It was not intended as an adversarial attack, but more of a wake up call that may not be communicated simply from reading the evaluations. A more dramatic, face to face statement may be more effective.

I agree with Rory that more fundamental changes need to take place. I would really like law school to look extremely different from the shape it takes right now. However, I would be behind efforts to get more feedback in the current system as I feel it would provide immediate, positive results while we continue to work towards larger goals.

That being said, I echo Alex's request for anyone to post any information they have on the process required to institute evaluation of feedback.

-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010

I'll hold off anything substantive for now, but one thought popped into my head which I think needs to be answered-- is this the kind of feedback we're looking for? What we did right or wrong on a test? Isn't that feedback only useful for taking other tests, which is not what we'll be doing once we leave school? It seems to me the feedback we want should be related to how to be a lawyer, not how to take a law school test. That's why I think some more fundamental changes are needed, and also why I find it kind of perplexing how many law school professors have never actually been lawyers.

-- RorySkaggs - 15 Feb 2010

@Rob and @Rory - Thanks for the feedback! I very much appreciate you taking the time to consider this idea.

@Rob I admire your ambition.

Eben recounted the history leading up to Brown v Board of Ed in class. He talked about how equalizing pay for black teachers built up a base of support for future initiatives and, to a lesser extent, got the country comfortable considering that there is a problem.

(Please do not read this as me equating institutional segregation and poor professoring as morally equivalent problems. I am just trying to draw lessons from a successful movement.)

The lessons I draw are (1) start small and (2) take concrete steps the affect actual, if small, change.

I don't think we are ready for protests such as sit-ins. Foremost, I don't think we have the support from the student body required to making protesting work. People are busy and I think we have to let this issue develop naturally. I hope these new evaluation questions may fertilize that natural development. As you pointed out, evaluations will help future students know what to expect and I think it will also help current students realize what is missing.

The second reason I think we have to take a slow approach to this issue, is for two reasons I don't think we can force professors into changing their ways; we have to make them want to. Protests make us adversarial. We are only here for another 2.5 years and will probably only be engaged for 1 more year. The faculty knows they can just wait us out.

Eben quoted an anonymous professor arguing for the existence of grades because giving students feedback is important. My hunch, and hope, is that many professor are genuinely interested in providing the best possible experience for their students, they has just not considered that current system is failing. I think the best way to show that the system is failing is by giving professors feedback on the issue. After all, that is our point -- to improve one first needs feedback on what they are doing wrong, otherwise they will continue to make the same mistakes.

I am happy for people to spend time brainstorming bigger ideas, but I don't want to lose focus on this idea. Perhaps you would like to make a post starting a forum to discuss the big ideas and this page could become a subtopic. What do you think?

One last point, I can think of no better weapon for future protests, if it comes to that, than a mound of data showing that feedback is currently a problem.

I think the next steps are to:

(1) draft what we want the Round II questions to look like.

(2) draft the letter introducing Round II and making it clear we do not want to interfere with the timing of Round I. When I briefly exchange emails with the dean about adding Round II, protecting Round I was his biggest concern.

(3) revise.

(4) figure out who has the power to implement this and contact them. Is anyone involved in the Student Senate? Could it be helpful?

I think we should wait until after class on Tuesday before moving on with this road map. I imagine this wiki is most active on class days and hope more people will add ideas to the discussion before we continue.

-- AlexAsen - 15 Feb 2010

Since there appears to be agreement that evaluations may not be earth shattering but will be easy to institute, I suggest that we turn this topic into a discussion about more radical ways in which we can change these policies. I recommend we hold a sit in at the faculty lounge. Feel free to brainstorm.

PS: I'm serious, and considering Mr. Skaggs's comments, I expect you to be with me Rory

-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010

I think we also need to refine our goals to something specific an reasonably attainable. I suggest individual feedback on exams and/or 1 hour midterms that are not graded but are given feedback. Thoughts?

-- RobLaser - 15 Feb 2010